I think that Kingdom Hearts was when the company really lost it. Screw The Spirits Without.

But I do agree, the company is a shell of what it once was. Bad business dealings forced Square to merge with Enix. Hell, Enix didn't need the merger. Now that the two companies are one, Enix's ambiguous business practices have turned the company into, and I quote James Rolfe here, "a shitload of fuck."

19 Views and only 1 reply Man the forums are slowing down, I wanna thank you for contributing 

But yeah it just feels like they lost the magic that made them great,  Why can't companies go back to the roots that made them what they are today?

I can't remember who it was (may have been DLP), but they said Final Fantasy brought legitimacy to Kingdom Hearts, but Kingdom Hearts brought shame to Final Fantasy. I think that pretty much sums up how I feel about KH.

I certainly wish they'd go back to classic RPGs. But then, there's not a whole lot of staff left from Square at Squenix. Mainly Mitsuda and Nomura. Hell, Squenix even canned Sakaguchi, Amano and Uematsu. The freaking holy trinity of gaming.

The biggest problem with Square Enix is that Hironobu Sakaguchi, Noubo Uematsu, and Yasunori Mitsuda left.

Sakaguchi and Uematsu didn't leave. They were fired.

Mitsuda is still there.

Why would they fire them?

Well, even before the merger, they'd all been relegated to "advisers" and not actual developers. Not since FF9 did they really contribute to the company.

After the merger, they were dismissed altogether. There's an interview with Sakaguchi about Infinite Undiscovery and his split with Squenix. It's eye opening. Hell, Sakaguchi didn't even get credited as the executive producer or creator of FF13, like he normally does (even the ones he had nothing to do with).

It all boils down to the fact that Squenix in its "infinite wisdom" is moving the company away from RPGs. If that's what they want to do, then they're going to do it, and we can't change that. We've got to only hope that another company steps up to fill that role (as long as it isn't the company that made Magna Carta *shudder*).

The prospect may suck at first, but you never know what good could come of it. We could end up with the sequel to Lunar 1 & 2 we're all wanting (which would really make for an epic 16-bit Gems... Roo). Remember Altus? Lord British? Bethesda Software? Capcom's done a few good ones. Perhaps Blizzard?

Well, maybe not Blizzard... anymore. But you see what I'm saying.

Before for I start I would like to comment about above post.

Turned Based RPGs - I too love them, one reason for I play an RPG is for a laid back experience and to take time making choices, but one problem with turned based RPGs are that after an enemy dies when two of your character are targeted on the second character attacks a different enemy.

Square and Enix merger - I thought Square bought Enix. I read after the merger Square/Enix were not taking questions or tech support calls for Dragon Warrior/Quest.

Now for my problem with Square-Enix.

Square-Enix only seems to focus on there top franchises and the remaking of the same games again and again which I believe are for profitable reasons cause how many versions of Final Fantasy I and IV do people need ... Than again why are they not doing something with Final Fantasy VII?

Another thing is it seems that they are rushing their games for a certain date, and start development on a sequel before even seeing what people like or dislike of the one that's just released. Also to me it seems that graphics are the top priority, followed by the story than gameplay.

This is myself but I didn't realize how many Square-Enix games I had on my list of PlayStation 2 games I wanted before buying the system. I don't like their games for the fact I  buy video games to play them, not to watch them.

I'm pretty sure that Mitsuda left. He's freelance now, just works closley with Square Enix.

White Mage, Enix bought Square after they bombed the movie.

And I find it curious how Dragon Warrior games keep getting better and better, but Final Fantasy games are getting worse.

I haven't played too many good rpgs since ps1. I liked FFX and I wathed my sister play alot of FF12 but I haven't played many Jrpg's since ps1. I kept hoping the star ocean series would be in good hands after the merge of Square and Enix but the last two the put out were absolutely horrible. I haven't' even bought many video games since ps2, and for some reason bought an xbox when that came out not finding more then three games i was actually interested in playing (Knights of the old republic rocked for a cool rpg experience). I just stick to playing SNES rpgs and replaying ps1 - ps2 rpgs. But I would agree, I would love for square enix to make a good new turn based rpg, or at least some other company to come along and bring us something new. An rpg based in an interesting universe, driven by an immersive story and relatable characters. I love rpgs, but not necessarily for the action. I like the experience because of itslike a book that you take control of the characters. I haven't really enjoyed any rpgs that tried to implement a new battle system, and by that i mean action adventure games that try to be rpgs but just end up being hack and slash games where usually the story fails.

I know i am overg eneralizing but how I wish I could come across a good turn based or semi-turn based rpg like chrono trigger or tales of fantasia, or star ocean for that matter.  But in the mean time, ( and maybe i should start a new thread when I ask this question) can any one suggest some good Jrpg's for ps1 or ps2 that obviously aren't FF or KH (which unfortunately didn't interest me in the slightest). Some great retro feelign rpgs that aren't impossible to come by or extremely expensive.

CHeers folks! 

I read on Wiki awhile ago this comment from Yoichi Wada:

 "it's very difficult to hit the jackpot, as it were. Once we've hit it, we have to get all the juice possible out of it"

And it's very clear they do that. What's perhaps depressing is how many companies they're buying out: Taito, EIDOS, etc. Whatever they don't milk themselves they'll indirectly milk from someone else.

I think it'll be awhile before Square Enix will consistently publish good titles. I didn't enjoy any FF title past 10, and I think KH is fun, but it just doesn't capture me like their older titles did.

I've been saying it for years now, and I'll say it here now as well.

I Blame Enix.

Here's the way I see it, Square and Enix both did will for themselves with their own major franchises (Final Fantasy for Square, Dragon Warrior for Enix) as well as their other random titles.

But here's the thing, I loved the games square put out because of what they were, and I loved the games Enix put out for what they were. To me, each company had a unique 'feel' to the game play, a certain style that I could recognize and relate back to that company.

In comes the bastard child Squenix who trys to take some of the wonderful things Square made, and make them play like an Enix game, or vice versa. Now the game seem to lack, something. The worst part is, I can't identify why I don't like them. 

For example FFXIII:

The Music is good
Graphics are top notch
Story is Decent
Controls are simple, yet effective
Learning curve isn't to steep but at the same time you can really work within it.
The game was a bit short for my liking, but that's becoming a more commonplace problem in rpgs I find.

So why didn't I like, why did I find it so unengaging, and why do I dread my own trophy obsession and the need to get my platinum for this game?

The only words I have are: It's not enjoyable. 

Sadly this doesn't explain what the problem with SquEnix is just that there is one. If I were to toss a guess out there it would be what I said before, making square games play like enix games or the other way around. I know you're one company now, but that doesn't mean you have to turn the seperate identities of your franchises into an emulsified gloop.

All this time I been cursing the Square part of Square-Enix when it should be the other way around. Been reading up on the merger and Enix were rethinking about the merger after the movie bomb. I can see why the movie bomb a 9-digit budget for a CGI film.

Something to think about, I noticed that any company that are large and merge/takeover other companies their products/support are not as good as when they were just one single company.

Don't know if this makes a different but who makes Final Fantasy? Dragon Quest is developed by Armor Project/Bird Studio and with VIII & IX was with the help of Level-5.

The thing with Dragon Quest is that they keep the same battle system unlike Final Fantasy where they try something different each game. (Myself I hate this but they are allowed to try something new.)

The battle system from Final Fantasy stayed the same pretty much from 4-7, with just minor implementation differences.

And yeah, the problems are Enix's fault. Not Square. Hardly anything but the name Square exists of Square within the company.

Actually when I typed about the battle systems I was mainly thinking of the PlayStation era and the ATB system of IV

Yeah, ATB. I meant FF4-9. Not sure why I typed a "7," ya know?

I'd never heard of Enix until they merged with Square.  I had heard of Final Fantasy long before I ever knew who made it.  When I was younger, I never wanted to play RPGs.  There was really no appeal to me at that time.  Times change and so do tastes and interests.  My best friend really liked RPGs and he used to show me tapes of his gameplay.  As a young Airman, 7 years ago, I had a little freetime after work, but not much money.  So I decided to get an RPG that I was interested in.  I bought the Skies of Arcadia Legends for Gamecube.  I know it's not a Square-Enix game!  But, I really liked the graphics and gameplay.

After that I became a fan of RPGs.  I really like the turn based RPG.  I like taking my time in a battle to go through a menu to pick the best attack without getting my butt kicked while  in the menu.  However I can't stand random battles that are way too frequent.  I got lost in Skies of Arcadia because too many random battles too often would make me forget which way I was going and where I last looked for a specific landmark.  That said, I think the worst thing you can do for a console RPG game is make it an online game.  I don't mean have online eliments, but make it purely online.  Today and 5 years from now I can still play Final Fantasy VII or even XIII.  I could even pop in Grandia on my DreamCast.  But What about Final Fantasy XI.  I don't know anybody who actually has it.  I think it spells certain death for a console game to be online only.

I am of the other camp. Enix is still doing fine with their own IPs.

SquareSoft on the other-hand was churning out rubbish a little while before they merged with Enix.

I'm kind of hoping that even though this isn't the Wringer question of the week, Commodore weighs in on it anyway.

Does the Commodore post in the forums? I can not recall ever seeing a post by him beside in the Weekly Wringer forum.

I am interesting to read what both Commodore and Roo has to say about this.

I think Square was much better when they were still Squaresoft. Back when they made Super Mario RPG, Chrono Trigger and all those amazing games.

The best game I've played from them lately is The World Ends With You. And that was an original game. I agree that they're really trying to milk both Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts at this point. I just want KH3 to come out already. Enough with all those handheld games!

What I'm trying to say is the games that they have made who aren't FF or KH have been really, really good. At least in my opinion. I think they should do something about that. New games are always nice, instead of trying to milk the same franchises over and over again.

This is pretty speculative, but I feel like Squeenix has become too big. They've absorbed a bunch of other companies and have seemed to drop in quality in the process. The older games, back when it was just Squaresoft, seemed to be more "intimate" to me, if that makes any sense. It was like everyone making decisions was on the same page and worked together so the games didn't feel forced or rushed. Now that they've become a monster publisher, I wonder if the big wigs aren't over-stepping their bounds and putting pressure on the actual developers.

It seems like (for the Final Fantasy series, anyways) they've become more focused on pushing the envelope and uncovering new ground with things like graphics and new battle systems, and that story and the small details that made the previous installments great are left in the dust. Take XIII for example: the biggest complaint I've heard about it is that the game "is on rails", that you don't really do much other than go along for the ride. X was also considered a very linear game, but they at least took the time to program towns and NPCs to help create a particular atmosphere for each area and gave you the opportunity to look around a little bit, even if you couldn't backtrack completely. For XIII, either they didn't have time (5+ year development) or didn't feel like adding in these smaller details that made the world feel more like a "home".

And as far as Yoichi Wada making the comment about hitting the jackpot and milking it, I just want to say something about Lightning from FF13 being a female clone of Cloud. Not only are they going to remake old games, they are incorporating subtler elements as well. I remember reading that someone on the development staff for the game threw out the idea of Lightning being a "female Cloud", so it's not even like it's just fan speculation.

I think of it the same way you might think of something like a local store. People always talk up the virtues of a local store where "people know you" and there's better service, but in the end somewhere like Wal-Mart wins out because of its resources that allow it to do things that other stores can't. At this point I think of Squeenix as a Wal-Mart. (Am I reaching with this analogy? :P )

I can't say too much about the Dragon Warrior/Quest series as I haven't played it yet, but just from looking at it I can tell that they stay tried and true to their formula, and judging by sales numbers in Japan, it gets amazing results. I look at it like Pokemon: people know they like the formula, so just create something with a few tweaks and a new story and people will come back for more. (I obviously don't think they recycle as much as pokemon, but the principle seems to be there)

As much as I'm not too pleased with the direction the company is going, I can certainly understand it. FF13 got loads of hate, but supposedly sold over 5 million units worldwide. Dragon Quest games are always juggernauts in Japan. It's a business, after all, so they're going to do what produces the most sales. Gaming has become more mainstream, so they're focusing on marketing to the masses more than just their original core fanbase. It sucks at times, but in a market economy sales drive everything. I think fans who are on sites like this one view games as Art (similar to a book or music), and the almighty dollar doesn't always produce the best results for art.

That was more than I thought I'd write, but the Final Fantasy series is one of my favorites and I feel strongly about it for the most part. I enjoyed 13, but don't really like the direction the series is headed towards. But... in the end I'm going to continue buying the games; I don't have enough others that I look forward to :P

Even though i dont think KH was the game that ruined square (id argue that KH kept square fresh and good for a little longer tbh), it was around that time (2002).

The problem was Square got so much success and money from FFXI that they stopped focusing on other works, and just went to the "port/remake/rehash" route. We were given an FF game every year from 97 to 01. (7, tactics, 8, 9, 10). All were great. Now i dont expect a new numbered FF every year these days because of increased costs and necessary technical programming, but going taking about 10 years to go from 11 to 12 to 13 (with about 4 years in between 12 and 13) is straight up pathetic.

You can see this happening to blizzard entertainment too. We were given a new blizzard game almost each year from 97 to 02 (diablo, starcraft/bw, diablo 2/lod, and warcraft 3). Then wow came out in 2004, and from 04 to SC2 in 2010, all we got were wow expansions.

I should also note that square is getting away from its roots every year. Im all for experimenting with gaming, but they stuff they are doing is more "dumbing it down to the least common demoninator"

Square lost its roots when the company ceased to exist.

Not to mention, Square (and even after Enix took over) never made a profit from FF11 in terms of recouping development cost and upkeep. It constantly ran in the red.

not true, FFXI was making profits from late 2002 to mid 2006.

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/380/380011p1.html

Breaking even and recouping development costs are not the same thing. Breaking even implies reaching a point where a loss is acceptable based on the rate of inflation. Not necessarily making a profit.

FFXI was profitable for square as long as they had over 200k members. They had that from late 02 to 06 easily, the game was loved in japan.

FFXI made tons of money for square. Id love a link from you saying otherwise

No doubt, Squenix is milking Final Fantasy for all it's worth, with all the reduxs and spin-offs, etc. With Kingdom Hearts, I'm not sure if it's quite the same case. Most of the games are just not labelled numerically, but they follow a story, I think (I'm not a fan of the series at all, but that's from what I understand).

I think two main problems they face are, first, as mentioned already, major creative forces have left the company, for whatever reasons. Secondly, I've mentioned this in another topic, but after years of everyone else trying to copy things Squenix has done in FF games, you have to ask what there is left for them to do with the series; what is there left for the series to achieve, or what other mountains are there for them to climb? Perhaps they are trying to figure this out, but they have not succeeded yet, as can be seen in the last two games, if nothing else.

They could stick with making more traditional entries, in appearance as well as gameplay, which would fit in perfectly with handhelds (and of course, they still re-release old entries on such platforms), but how long could they keep doing that either? How long should they keep doing that before it's just enough? How can their creativity grow and expand if they just keep making things like that?

I suppose one could argue that some series don't change terribly drastically. Pokemon is more or less the same as it ever was, yet they still do make improvements (mostly aesthetic, but still notable) as they continue to develop. Dragon Quest games are also mostly the same kind of thing, although given how phenomenal the series is in Japan, this was probably done intentionally! I'm not saying it would be impossible for Squenix to do the same thing with Final Fantasy; it's just more of a question if they should or not, and what it would mean if they did.

I think some people who say they long for the good old days of Final Fantasy games when they were younger, and want the series to be like the old games again, while I am sympathetic, unfortunately don't understand the situaion Squenix is in. It's not an easy thing to have to deal with, and it's hard to say what to do, sometimes. We know good games and bad games when we play them, but that doesn't always tell you how to make one, and how they can 'fix' a damaged series. It's not so easy.

BigGuy made the good point that maybe another major problem is that they have become too big as a company, so resources are not always concentrated on some games as they used to be able to do. That certainly can make a huge difference. It's good when companies can grow, expand and develop, so that they can hopefully make better products, but if they're not resulting in better output, that's a huge problem to have to deal with in itself. Again, it's not so easy to have to deal with these things.

Now I could be wrong, but I think bigguy hit the nail on the head, SE is just taking on too much at once to produce quality games, they choose quantity over quality. This really shows with the FF games, either they relauch an older title cause they can't be arsed to make a new one (which in some cases is ok if the original game cart is hard to find), or they skimp on plot and character development, put the game on rails and fill in the gaps with clunky exposition.

One thing people aren't bring up is the non-FF/KH/DQ games they develop as well, stuff like Infinite Undiscovery and Last Remnants. I know they're putting out other games but I haven't played much of them so I can't comment to well on it. I haven't gotten a chance to try Last Remnants but I have played a bit of Infinite Undiscovery, and it's not a bad game. Not the best RPG I've ever played but it's enjoyable, the story is decent and I never felt bogged down in silly details or clunky exposition, and while it's not completely sandbox, it's not completely linear either so it does give you a bit of freedom as to where to go and what to do. I mean seriously, you could have called Infinite Undiscovery FFXII and vice versa, the FF series would benefit from a better game and more people would have played Infinite Undiscovery.

As far as Kingdom Hearts go I really haven't played much of the series, beat the first game and that's about it, and I really don't understand some of the criticism it gets. The characters aren't bad, it's fun to see Square characters interact with Disney characters, it gives you a fair amount of variety in gameplay and characters selection, the graphics are good, the music is great, objectively it's a well-made game. It's fair if people don't like it but there's nothing really wrong with it. And it was a commercial success. One thing they do that some people might not like is they use handheld games to bridge the gap in story between games, like I know for a fact the first GB game happens between the 1st and second PS2 games. So if you don't play GB you might feel left out but I think this indicative to genuine effort on SE's part to make a deep and engrossing narrative story, which is something they need to do with the FF series again.

Another thing, what is up with SE's cover art these days. I mean DQ games are still pretty recognizable, but most of the other titles have shiny foil covers of random object/buildings/??? that, while it might look pretty, tells me nothing about a game. Now maybe I'm the minority here, and other people research what games they want before they go to the store and ignore everything else, but 80% of my buying decision hinges on the cover art, does it capture my attention, does it tell me what the game is about, does it make me want to pick up the box and turn to the back to see what the game is about? You remember FFVII's cover? I still remember mine, it was the Greatest Hits version with the bright green banner. At the time my parents let me pick 1 new game and I hadn't played a FF game before, I could have easily passed it up. But you see some scrawny dude holding a massive sword looking over a futuristic city with that logo of a green moon/orb/glowy-explodey-thingy proudly announcing FINAL FANTASY VII BITCH! Now I look at FFXII collector's edition box, the hell did it rust? Oh wait there's a picture there, I think it's an Alien? Now I know it's supposed to be some sort of Judge from the game but looking at the box with FFXII dead center over it and the lower half blurred into a gradient effect, I'd have no idea what it is looking at it the first time.

Case in point, SE is flash over substance now, they produce shit and cover it with a thin veneer of pretty pixels, a good game this does not make.

"....other people research what games they want before they go to the store and ignore everything else, but 80% of my buying decision hinges on the cover art, does it capture my attention, does it tell me what the game is about, does it make me want to pick up the box and turn to the back to see what the game is about?"

...Well. Why not research what the game is about before you buy it then, as opposed to letting "80% of your buying decision" be based on what the cover is? Whose fault is that? ;P

I haven't played a lot of non-FF or DQ games by Squenix lately (I have no interest in even touching the KH series), so I can't really comment either. Generally, they seem to be fairly mixed anymore though. For example,  I recall that The World Ends With You did have a lot of fans, but it got a lot of flack, too. Generally, it was regarded as a decent game, but did get a lot of criticisms, too. Star Ocean: The Last Hope was evidently better well-received than the other two games you mentioned, Infinite Discovery and The Last Remnant. The PSP reduxs, First Discovery and Second Evolution, also were generally scored well by critics, by I recall they also were given some criticisms, too.

And then of course, there was The 3rd Birthday. I don't need to comment any more on that, I'm sure.

I think overall, it seems like Squenix probably makes okay games still, but  I think that's the problem a lot of people have with them anymore; they're not special anymore. They don't feel unique, and are just another company that makes games. That's pretty sad to see, and realize, I must say....

I'm not saying it's smart to let pretty pictures influence you're buying decisions, I think the box art they use is rather poor marketing. It's the first thing you see when you pick up a game, shouldn't it at least be interesting to look at it? Shouldn't it stand out from the crowd of games and make you wanna pick it up? Cause if you do, you'll most likely flip it over and read the back, see what the game is like. Maybe it's just me but I think those small details are really important, especially when you're trying to launch a game without name recognition.

For me I usually don't plan to go to a game store, I'm just out grocery shopping or w/e and end up checking out a game store, so I really don't have any research ready. Honestly I wish there were more reviewers that talk about good games, text reviews aside most of the video reviewers do bad games cause they're more entertaining to bitch about. Or retro games, which are great but I usually go looking for a current gen game, or at least a PS2 game lol. Reviews like the one Angry Joe did about Witcher 2 sold me on the game.

Does anyone do PS2 gems  series? Or something of the sort lol

"Honestly I wish there were more reviewers that talk about good games..."-- I think you actually do have a lot to choose from there, if you look for them. ;P

" ....most of the video reviewers do bad games cause they're more entertaining to bitch about. Or retro games..."-- I'm not sure if 'most video reviewers do bad games", or old games, but I understand what you're getting at. Yeah, it did become cool to tear into terrible games, and often times a video review is the best way to do that. What's funny about that is a text review of a good game, along with anything else really, tends to be perfectly okay for a good game! Not that videos of good games are ineffective, but I think most people create and look to those anyway.

I've never heard of a 'PS2 Gems'-type of reviewer, no, but being that gems are everywhere, you can probably find video reviews that still talk about them; or certainly text reviews, too. They're out there, if you look!

Yeah I'm weird like that. I can read through forums for hours but when it comes to reviews, I want to be entertained as well as informed. With pretty pictures and visual references, and Ultimate Warrior imitations. I know in this day and age you can go to youtube, type in a game name and get a dozen reviews and playthroughs, but I appreciate things like 16-bit gems, it picks a niche and finds games you probably never heard of, and therefore wouldn't know to look for. But most niches are either really new games or really old games, and PS2 is about in the middle right now. I just can't pick a genre and be like "hmm I want a new Action game, let me look through this list of names here and see what strikes me as potentially interesting!"