Counting your vote, 3.5 ties 4th. While Pathfinder doesn't have the D&D name on it, it is d20, and I would probably add those votes to the 3.5 votes. Given what you've said, I'm not giving you homework... yup that's right HOMEWORK. I expect your work on my desk... er... wringer next mondy, and don't think I'm afraid to give you a 0 cause I will.

If you've not checked my post on Pathfinder in the forums it briefly outlines the differences, but that would only be for extra credit. Your assignment, go check out http://www.d20pfsrd.com/. Pathfinder is d20 and kept the open source concept. This site, not only has everything from the base book, but also has been kept up to date and includes any new classes and spells from the splat books that have come out. 

If you're on a budget, or want to try before you buy. This has everything you need to get started.

As for this weeks wringer... I think it's hard to say, while yes it's nice to see them looking and working towards a more adult audience in their games, and it's quite cool to see some of the things developers can do with (motion sensor for Aliens is just an awesome idea) I personally don't think they'll be able to pull away from the family image they've come to be known for.

Ahh, thanks for a very good question. (sorry, I'm not into DnD, so I won't answer those questions.)

1) What I wish for:

The "Wet you", I mean, "Wee you", I mean "Wii U" (scnr) attracts all kinds of people. "Real gamers" as well as casuals. (I like the term "real gamer" because its more to the point than "hardcore gamer"... but I digress).

From what I know now, I have a slim hope that games become easier to use for the big audience. I think the touchpad is the reason for that. This might attract more people to play games like Zelda and Mario (and not just Wii Sports); very much depending on how easy the controls and the games themselves are.

2) Interlude

I think that the level of difficulty is really the key for the resulting audience. Too easy -> no real gamers. Too hard -> no casual gamers. In order to attract both groups (lets just say there are only these two groups), one would have to have a huge variety in difficulty. Up until now, typical Nintendo games like Mario and Zelda don't have an option to choose a difficulty.

3) What I think really happens:

The Wii U will be a success in the group of real gamers. I doubt that it will be as successful in the group of casual gamers as the Wii was. That's because casuals just don't want to spend money on a console again. They just bought the Wii. It will be successful for casuals, but not as successful.

4) More of what I wish for:

I think what is needed for a success in both groups is an adaptive difficulty. (I think that some games have that, but can't remember which ones). What I mean by that is that the game gets harder if you are good, and easier if you suck.

Many games go into that direction by giving you hints on how to solve a puzzle or where to go. Maybe they should take this a step further. Maybe they should measure reaction times (amongst other things) of the player, to determine their skill. This is not very complicated to do technically, so I'm wondering why no games have that feature. This could have been done in the SNES aera or maybe even earlier. It might be hard to find the best parameters, though.

I'm not talking about sidequests that are harder than the main quests. I'm talking about adjusting the difficulty of the whole game; In a way that actually anybody can play it.

5) Competitiveness

Enough about difficulty. I hope that some games for the Wii U will be more competitive. I think this is also an important point to attract real gamers. Mario Kart is fun, but it's also pretty much random who wins.

PS: What's up with Nintendo and the names of their consoles? NES, SNES, Camecube are all fine. N64 was a bit silly, but still ok. I thought Wii was the worst name by now, but they actually made it worse with "Wii U".

Yah a subject I can talk about, yeah the most I know about D&D is from Penny-Arcade and random videos... "Where's the Mt. Dew" being the best.

Anyway, I'm lucky, or unlucky, enough to have G4TV and they were kind enough to show all three + the Konami and Ubisoft Conferences. So I did have a chance to form my own opinion on the Wii U, along with reading stuff from Clan of the Gray Wolf, Blistered Thumbs, etc.  

So on to the Wii U,  Nintendo has officially become the king of gimmicks, with the Wii, the 3DS, and now the Wii U, atleast these systems print money, or otherwise, someone might actually notice.  '

Speaking of which, I'm partially blind, so 3D can go die in a fire, I hate seeing cheesy 3D effects in 2D.  

Okay, honest thoughts on Wii U, to paraphrase Angry Joe's Vlog, its really too soon to tell, I got to admit the second screen is cool, but with the intial specs of only being able to use one of the tablets per console, and the other players having to use the nunchakus, it seems fairly lame.  Like even in the promotional video they show a lady playing sometime of racer, and she gets the edge by using the tablet.  Thats an awesome idea, kinda like playing a 16 man game of SOCOM 4, and starting out with invincibility (just b/c you are hosting the match).  

As far as third party support goes, I'm glad companies have gotten behind it, and are releasing A-list titles for it, but do we really know what is coming out for it yet, they were showing stuff from Batman: Arkham City, Ghost Recon, and several other titles, all of which I'm blanking on, but the problem was they were all screens from the 360 and PS3.  

I know this is kinda old hat for previewing new systems, but like the 3DS, I think they would have been better off waiting a year to show it off, and actually demoed some real games for their system, instead of tech demos, and movies from other consoles. 

Final Thoughts:  I think this system will go through some definite changes before it releases, probably 4th quarter next year, first quarter 2013.   But until I see something actually from a 3rd party using the Wii Mote v 2.0, I'm not going to be sold.   

That right there is my biggest concern, are Ubisoft, Square Enix, Bethesda, etc.  actually going to bother with the touch screen when they are designing new games in 2012?  Or are you just going to have a map, inventory screen, or a life bar (I'm looking at you Dreamcast LCD), for the game?  If that's the case, I'd think I'd just really just use the gamepad to play.

I'm still just really not sold on the whole interactive experience, I fear, I may have eventually have to join the band wagon, but I can tell you, if I'm going to play Skyrim and Deus Ex 3 for 5 to 10 hours straight the last thing I'm going to do is stand up and have to use motion controls to play a damn game.  Thats too much like work, and to hell with working for free.

Greetings to tall, new commenter, been watching the wringer for a few months, this question got me interested enough to post.

You/they say Nintendo is attempting to bring back the "hardcore" gamers to their consoles. However, the last time they really had any hardcore games on their non-handheld consoles was what, the 64? The Gamecube had Smash Melee (many, many lost weeks to that one) and perhaps the Skies of Arcadia port. I will be the first to admit, I never went out to find hardcore games for the Gamecube, but that was largely because I never thought of any console as a hardcore platform. 

Growing up, I played computer games almost exclusively. (Wing Commander 3 was the first game I bought back in 1993, and my father bought me a Thrustmaster FLCS for my birthday as a result. Heck of a start for a 9 year old.) As a result, the games I played were much, much more complex than anything present on the consoles until perhaps the last generation of games. Therefore, I never equated any console game as hardcore until a buddy let me borrow his SNES and Chronotrigger in 2000. Later, I tried a few other JRPS and liked the flavor, but by and large, I found the consoles games to be far too limited for my tastes. I bring this up as an example of how the term "hardcore" can mean many things to different gamers.

These days, I talk with some of my gaming friends and I have found a broad spectrum of what defines a "hardcore" game. Some link the term solely to the subject matter, in which case (aside from perhaps Madworld) the Wii and Gamecube were certainly not hardcore. Others link it to the duration/required commitment to the game. Yet others will link it, as smu42 said, the difficulty. As we have gotten older, most of the hardcore Nintendo groups have given up on Nintendo as a serious gaming company, but they also feel some of that is due to their tastes changing with age, while Nintendo is still linked to the lower age demographic. As kids, they felt only certain Nintendo games were ever hardcore for specific reasons, such as Battletoads (difficulty), Ninja Gaiden (difficulty), Metroid (duration), Zelda (duration/difficulty), and the Mario games (difficulty/duration. Kirby's Adventure, for example, was never hardcore due to the low difficulty and the ability to save, even though it was a great game.  Additionally, the typical "hardcore" gamer these days is supposedly much more based on the multiplayer experience, rather than the single player experience, as can be seen with the claims that most of the Halo/Gears of War/Call of Duty style of games are hardcore. 

So, since the definition of a hardcore game has both changed due to age and market, which style of hardcore game is Nintendo attempting to get back into? Are they going to bring back "Nintendo hard" and call it hardcore, or are they going to attempt to bust into the Gears of War/Halo/Call of Duty combination of subject matter/multiplayer flavor of hardcore? If they are making the former, is that a form of hardcore we (being older than we were when Nintendo was hardcore) even recognize it as being a hardcore game due to changed tastes? If they are attempting to bring back the difficulty, will the kids even accept it, or will they call it too hard? If we take smu42's option and make the difficulty under the control of the user, is the game still hardcore?

If Nintendo wants to get back to the "hardcore" market, they will have to pick which one, for they are often mutually exclusive. In general, they will have to up the maturity of their games in order to even appeal to the general hardcore demographic. I think they tried to do this with the last Metroid game but most people just thought Samus was whiny, rather than edgy or mature. Madworld was extremely violent, but it was violence for violence's sake, rather than violence which impacts the player.  Perhaps most importantly, they will have to make the player care about the game, rather than caring about the control mechanism. It is hard to get focused on a game enough for it to be hardcore when you are preoccupied with the fact that you are wagging a Wiimote around or using a touch screen tablet. With the Wii, they focused almost exclusively on the fact that you were controlling the game via motion rather than what you were actually doing in the game. In a hardcore game, the control mechanism doesn't matter aside from that it must be transparent to the player. Think "Wow, I can swing a sword in the game!" rather than "Look, by wiggling my arm I can move this sword!". You can't think about the controls when all your concentration is on the game. 

So if they move past the novelty of their control system, if they make the subject matter suitable for older audiences, and if they have a well-done multiplayer component, Nintendo might have a chance to bring in the current crop of "hardcore" gamers. 

I honestly think it's too soon to say if they will be successful or not mainly because we don't know how different an experience the hardcore games will be on the Wii U.  The sizzle reel was all of 360/PS3 footage for one thing.  Another is we don't know how 3rd party companies will use the new controller.  We have a bit of a feel from the Ubisoft roundtable held on the subject of what they are bringing to the table, but it's not enough to say.   To attact a hardcore gamer to the system (and thusly bring them either completely away from an XBox or PS3 -- OR at least get them to buy a Wii U and run two systems at once) they have to bring something truly unique to the table that's worth playing on the system.*

For example, to just say Batman Arkham City is a launch title isn't enough.  Gamers with an XBox or PS3 will buy it for their respective systems when it comes out this October.  The Wii U won't be shipping until after March 31st 2012 at the earliest according to Reggie.  So, the question here is what will make Arkham City on the Wii U so enticing to someone who isn't a Nintendo fanboy that they will either want to A) buy it again for the Wii U along with the new system or B) wait and not buy it for my PS3 in order to buy it on the Wii U (again, along with the new system).   Right now, I think this question cannot be answered until we see what kind of experience it is. 

As a port-machine, it would fail.  Unless the hardcore gamer is a Ninteno fanboy, I don't see why a Playstation fan would abandon their system of choice for a Nintendo brand to play ports with an added touch screen inventory or some-such.  Personally, as a Nintendo fan, if an equal graphically powerful Metroid or Zelda came to the PS3, I would stick with my Nintendo one because I already own the system.

So, maybe my best answer can come from my own personal experience.  For someone like me , a lifelong Nintendo fan AND a hardcore gamer, they don't need to attract me as such.  I have a PS3 right now for games like Uncharted and Assassin's Creed, but I also have a Wii because of Mario, Zelda and Metroid.  I don't need to be convinced to come over to the Wii U.  It's a Day 1 buy for me because of what exclusive titles they have that only Nintendo can offer.  So, as long as the visual / audio quality is there, I would rather operate one system and buy all my titles for the Wii U instead of buying, say, a PS4 to play an Assassin's Creed title that will be on both.

So, in the end, maybe I have my answer in a way - we need more info on how different the experience will be before we can judge if the hardcore will come calling.

* I want to just say as well that I find it sad that owning just a Nintendo system doesn't make one hardcore anymore, when Nintendo as a publisher makes plenty for the non-casual gamer.  I know it's just a majority rules situation though, as the numbers of 1st party Nintendo core games does not equal the number of 3rd party core games on other systems.

At least Nintendo goes balls to the wall insane now when it comes to hardware. I watched the press conference and was unimpressed but it's a trade show it's not really for the consumer. I'm happy that 3rd party support looks really solid, then again I mean this is the same thing that happened with the Wii when it was announced (Mainly Ubisoft but other content providers as well)

This is all speculation, really I mean it's beyond early to claim it's sucess or failure.

The Console

I think Nintendo's main concern is coercing their current market into buying into this new hardware. As I'm sure most of you are aware hardware sales and software sales for the Wii are really out of sync and thus I'm not convinced at it's initial success. Another aspect of that's a bit troubling is the fact that there is only one WiiPad per console, though economically for the consumer it makes a lick of sense. Nintendo stands to lose a lot if this doesn't meet sales expectations, stock has dropped 5% due to stock holders more or less jumping ship.

I want to straight up say that the team working on the design of the console and controller itself are fantastic. This thing though it has a touch of Apple in it's DNA the aesthetics of this machine is just oh my god. I mean this thing looks sleek, curvy just damned nice!!

Software

Nothing mildly interesting reported here for the Wii U, we've seen some tech demos, but their tech demos. The 3D party software looks alright but go figure that early software announcements are underwhelming.

Why must all consoles be similar? One thing about Nintendo is that they are family friendly and one of the reasons why I like them even though I don't plan on getting anymore of their consoles or handhelds. These hardcore gamers are probably not going to like the WiiU controller.

Thinking of it the GameCube people complain that the graphics were too cartoony.

I've been a CAREER gamer (hardcore has such a negative connotation to it) since 1994. The last generation of consoles has really disappointed me, and now Nintendo is about to do it again.

They're about to lose one career gamer. They should be more worried about that, rather than gaining more. ~Mr. K

I just use the term gamer since I don't just fall under one category. As for losing people the GameCube and DSLite are the newest Nintendo consoles I have from them, they lost me with their motion controllers.

Ugh, my head hurts so much from this topic. I have so much to say when Nintendo and Hardcore are brought together and the WiiU just makes it even more insaine. So I will probably just scramble on and I hope it will be readable... Oh and let's just get this out of the way now. *HUG*

First off, Mr. K, Skyward Sword has NOT been announced for WiiU. The Skyward Sword on WiiU is only a tech demo to show the WiiU's capabilities, for those of you who do not know it shows A boss battle in a building and you can change the camera angle and the lighting and things like that or bring it onto the WiiU screen, its just to show off WiiU abilities. Skyward Sword will probably be on WiiU, but will definatly be on the Wii.

Now for my definition of Hardcore and where Nintendo falls into it. For me hardcore means you play games as your biggest hobby and you spend hours playing games. Odds are these are not casual games due to repetitive nature of the most simple of casual games. God I am just not sure what to write next. Nintendo has been never made a distinction between casual and hardcore until the WiiU, but they have slowly drifted. NES was not hardcore or casual, it was just a video game system. Noone made the diffrence back then. They did have easy and hard games so the first sign of casual and hardcore are noticable today, but back then there was no distinction. In the SNES the same thing continues, there were easy and hard games. When N64 came around there were still easy and hard, but easy started to have a more simple look to it, which when systems like the PlayStation just across the water it did not look good. Gamecube was still neither it had its easy and its hard. Although by now people had caught on to how Nintendo was making more child friendly games so people started to make games designed easy for children. Then the Wii came and Nintendo made its step into casual land. It was smart and got them a lot of money. They had their hardcore games too, harder games that took more time like Mario, Zelda, and Metroid, as well as online games like Brawl (Which is more family friendly than Melee on PURPOSE) The WiiU is Nintendo's attempt to reach both markets. They will probably have easier games and harder games. I expect it to be more similar to the Gamecube days than anything else.

As for the controller, I like it. I think it looks uncomfortable to hold, but it really does have everything you could want besides a mouse and keyboard, but this is a console guys. It is great. The 3rd parties shown at e3 conference that people complained about being PS3/360 gameplay made perfect sence. (That last sentence came out odd, but I think you get it) This is Nintendo revealing the WiiU and they just wanted to show you what games would be on their systems and they showed the original games to show how 'hardcore' they are. People complaining are stupid on so many levels, I can't stand it. (Head seems to have calmed down, music helps)

Hmm thats all I can think of for now, but I believe I will be back with more. Since it is my last week of school I should get plenty of thinking time while we sit around and do nothing.

This is actually more difficult to say than it first appears. We have something interesting with the unveiling of the Wii U and the PSP Vita. I know the question wasn't about the Vita, but just hear me out...

Sony is trying to compete in the handheld market and has actually put a price tag on their new console, but with a very vague starting line-up. Wii U by contrast has a fairly large and impressive catalogue of announced games, but no official price tag yet.  Two major factors come into play here - 3rd party support and economy. (And this is here I'm going to stop talking about the Vita, I just mentioned it for a contrast purposes)

I am not a rich person by any stretch. I consider myself mid to upper middle-class. I recently went through a job change and currently make less money than I did before. Even before the economy dragged, I've never been someone with a highly expendable income. When the Wii was announced at $249, I balked a bit, since that's the first Nintendo console to cost more than $199 at launch, but ultimately wound up paying $289 for the console since that was the first one I could get my claws on. (And sadly, could've gotten a discount from Wal-Mart if I'd waited about two weeks longer since I worked there at the time. Another note is that considering inflation, that's impressive). Either way, I don't usually jump on things at launch because of my pocket book and waiting to see what games are going to be in its lineup.

The PS3 and 360 were both well above what my income could afford for a home console or even hope to justify by any stretch of the imagination. Aside a select few games (most of which not exclusive to the PS3 or 360) my choice in gaming console was clear - the Wii won.

At the same time however, my library does contain an over abundance of fat plumbers and blue hedgehogs. While this is personally appealing to me, it's also sad that most 3rd party games of any lasting value to the console tend to be in its Wii Ware section. I do love Ghost Busters on Wii from a control aspect, but the cinematics of the PS360 (my affectionate term for PS3/360 shared titles) are simply a cut above. 

I am sick of being ridiculed for liking this little "PS2 dressed up like a Mac" because I very honestly prefer a good cell shaded or cartoony game to the gritty gun metal gray worlds that have completely dominated the PS360. I LIKE COLOR SPAMMIT! Katamari Damacy, Klonoa, NiGHTs, Mario - they have COLOR and they are FUN YOU -------- *cough* And it's actually the WiiS2 (PS2/Wii) simultaneous development that I think has stunted the Wii since it is able to utilize dual layer discs and technically has more storage power than the PS2. The point being that I don't need super high graphical details to have fun with my games, although it is a nice bonus.

Third party support is key to a healthy console. The PS1-2 had this in abundance and why it was prime time for RPGs among other venues. I think that the fact that the Wii U has already garnered support for some very noteworthy titles outside the Mario franchises is very encouraging to me. The fact that it also has backwards compatibility is also a big bonus (Another factor that made me love my PS2).

I'm fairly simple in my own scope of games and interests, but I recognize that there are many factors that go into the success or failure of a product. While I do not play a lot of FPS or Sports games for example, I recognize that many others do, and the appeal of them can attract others to the unit or help support it. Whaver a console costs, it is the software sales that ultimately justifies all the R&D, time, effort and materials that have gone into it.

So the question to me is, how well will it engage hardcore and casual gamers? Title selection and price tag are going to be key here. I don't think I need to give a lengthy exposition about the economy, but there was a time I bought mostly new games and am now back to dragging through used titles where available. (Unless it's something I REALLY want and KNOW I will like *angel*)

I haven't even gotten into a lot of the system's innate capabilities beyond its backwards compatability and projected lineup. Oh God am I rambling. Well, let's try to briefly summate - It is proported to [though not confirmed] to be at least 50% better processing power than the PS360, has High Def [I had an SD TV when the next gen consoles came out so... yeah... another point in the wii's favor for the low budget gamer], streamlined online gaming experience [big bonus points there] backward compatibility, 4 USB ports which can be used for USB drives or external hard drives (I also presume the controller will be charged through these much like the PS3 wireless controllers) and then we finally make it to the controller- Said controller will include 6" widescreen ratio touch screen, 2 analog, a cross pad, SNES like 4 basic buttons, 4 shoulder buttons, Home + and - buttons, gyros and accellerators and backward facing camera.  (It also eats babies, leaks kryptonite and shits rainbows. May be hazardous to your health, kill you in your sleep and raid your fridge at night for those little fruit coctails you bought for your lunch. *s'truth!) Then we also have gaming on the fly where the big and small screens can be utilized in tandem for different functions [not precisely like a handheld console but close to it!] and whatever connectivity it will have with handheld and internet functions. *takes a deeeeeeep breath*

In some terms this seems like a step back - having a solid controller again when movement has been pushed oh so heavily between the Wii, PS Move and Kinect. Yet it still has the gyros and accelerometer so we will be seeing move sensitive functions. I'm wondering how well that will work with the controller design, but at the same time there is something comforting about having a substantial, well designed controller in hand. Familiar, comfortable territory for me since I've gotten a lot of mileage out of my DSLite as well. I've also liked the Wii's controller OPTIONS. Some games could be played with just the wii remote, some with the nunchuck, a classic or cube controller... given the Wii U will be backward compatible it's actually feasable that even some of the new games will be compatible with the wii controller. It is very exciting at the prospects and I don't think the world is ready to go hands free all the time.

*looks up at the rant*

In conclusion, ze 'ardcore gamer is going to be more inclined to shell out cash for ze shiniez, while ze casual gamer is going to be watching zheir wallat.

I do believe that the Wii U is going to be a success. However, its reach and magnitude is going to be proportionate to the support it gets from the casual and frequent gaming community. It has appeal on both sides - high definition, streamlined online experience, innovative technology and a grand 3rd party support opener for the frequent gamers. Again with the innovative technology as well as backward compatibility and a tentative pricetag for the more casual gamer. If the Wii U has a higher pricetag than its brother (which is likely, I'm estimating $350 -$400 for the console and $65-70 for the controllers separate, please don't quote me) then it would be wise for retailers to offer a trade-in program similar to what is available for the 3DS and its brethren. Essentially bringing in a Wii would give a better trade in value with purchae of the new Wii U console. Can Wii draw in both the casual and frequent gaming market? Yes, I believe so. But I think it's still too early to call how well they will do based on the fact that the pricetag is not on display yet.

God knows hardcore gamers  spent hours in line for a brand new PS3 at launch, and the ones swayed to the Nintendo dark side will be doing the same for the Wii U. Money conscious people like myself will just have to wait and watch for now.

Nintendo has learned from its past and been changing. As was mentioned by Ninto55, their change into the casual gaming market was a smart step. A wise decision.

The Wii ironed out a lot of kinks that held back the previous consoles. The ability to use 4 controllers with the N64 opened the flood gate for party games of which they are currently famous. The Cube brought communication between the games and the handheld GBA, but still chained to wires. The wii's wireless capabilities and online functions (While admittedly more limited with the current friend code system) were still vastly improved over previous gens for what you didn't have to buy in addition to the console to enjoy a multiplayer experience.

I expect the Wii U will iron out much of the gripes that either plague or annoy Wii owners and critics.

I'd like to hand Sonicrose an internet cookie for liking colour in games, maybe you should check out Enslaved if it goes to the bargain bin, it's a post-apocalyptic game with a friggan colour palette... beautiful...

I believe Nintendo will succeed in bringing the hardcore gamers to the WiiU, because not only is the hardware for it is new and a combination of an idea in gaming that nobody has put on consoles, making the controller more for the type of games people usually connect with hardcore gaming, having it have more use of buttons for playing games and a touch screen which can work for more hardcore games, but I'm thinking they will release a more constant stream of games that are considered more hardcore, espically since the graphics capability will be much improved on from the Wii.

I read on the ticker to G4 during X-Play and Attack of the Show today, that Skyward Sword was confirmed for the Wii Motion Plus, 

   "Nintendo's Reggie Fils-Aime Confirmed to Venturebeat that the Legend of Zelda Skyward Sword will not be available for the Wii U because it was designed for the orgiinal Wii"

Word for word Mr. K.  

As a hardcore gamer I am very excited in what Nintendo will do, With tons of Developers lined up to create games for the Wii U we should get a good some good games to follow for the coming years, I'm wondering how the Nintendo is going to use this for their games as well. With the game Line-Up they showed at E3 I think the hardcore crowd might begin to be pulled in and interested. Now if it can support online games then that would seal the deal. Nintendo needs to have a better online face. I like how the 360's layout, it is easy to navigate, the Playstation Networks could use a touch up, Back when I still had a Wii the online store was nice and simple. I feel Nintendo needs to focus on the Online factor, they have gotten by this far but if they would just work on that they could make more money if they wanted to. If the Wii U had better online support and graphics rivaling the PS3 and 360 then this could be a heavy hitter for them.  

I know graphics don't make a game and they aren't the most important thing in creating a game but it is nice when I play a zelda game and can get lost in the scenery. It is the icing on the cake not the whole cake its self, that would make the Wii U that much better.

I see a lot of potential with the new controler, to be able to clear the hud and make it like a DS screen is nice. Also the numerous other things people can come up with. As a Nintendo fan since when I picked up Tetris for the Game Boy and Ocarina of Time for the N64 this makes me excited.

Also the downloadable games from their extensive old school library is another nice factor

Since I lost my Wii I don't know if I should wait until this comes out or just get it so I can play LoZ: Skyward Sword

All in all this seems to be a good move in Nintendo's part, with TONS of money made from catering to bringing in more casual gamers Nintendo has the backing to make more good games in my opinion, also they have brought in and created new gamers that will follow them

Nintendo has been good to me for 25 years.

I will be purchasing this system.  I am even considering going out, on my way to pick up some siding, to reserve it at my local GameStop, today.

I kind of like how the new controller turns the console into a giant DS (if only I could play some of my DS games on the new console, ala a DS player).

This system will be awesome for RPGs.  It could bring you a little further into the game by being like the sack of goodies you have to look through in the heat of battle for an HP curing potion.  Keeping the game moving without having to switch screens for items.

Only one of those controllers is available to use per unit, but I wonder if you could utilize a UDraw tablet in a similar fashion (I know it doesn't have a video touch screen so it wouldn't be exactly the same).

I see the possibility of a system update, or possibly a change to the system prior to release that would allow the utilization of more than one per system.  I realize the trick (and the expense) doesn't come from connecting four of those controllers, but from sending out four video feeds to those controllers for a game.  While I am not an expert, I am sure that would require some serious processing power, but it would be worth the extra cash.

Anyway, I look forward to the system, but I am somewhat concerned that Sony and Microsoft will try to copy this on their next system and announce similar plans before the Wii U gets off the ground.

But the question was whether or not I thought the system will be a success.

It will print the Benjamins like crazy.  The thing to keep in mind is that the typical person that falls into the "Casual Gamer" category tends to have more disposable income and are usually drawn to the next big thing and want to own it.  To me these are the people that bought an iPad first day and then bought an iPad2 on the first day and are already looking to buy an iPad3.  They have it around as something to do when there isn't anything better on TV or as party entertainment.

On top of that," Hardcore Gamers" recognize the "innovation in gaming" (for those playing along, take a drink) and see it as an enhancement to their experience.  Though I imagine that some will hold off on the purchase until they see or play a rendition of their favorite game on the system.

I am somewhere in between but I suppose I am a Nintendo loyalist.  Not to the point that I think Nintendo can do no wrong (where in the HELL is my Mother franchise and why is it not at least on the Virtual Console?), but with a few minor exceptions they have been good to me.

Now if only they will announce BluRay movie playback.

Wii U not yet available for prepurchase, however, GameStop does have a Wii U page according to the clerk there.

I don't see it by searching the website, though.

This system will be awesome for RPGs.  It could bring you a little further into the game by being like the sack of goodies you have to look through in the heat of battle for an HP curing potion.  Keeping the game moving without having to switch screens for items. ~TommyJames

That is a nice idea. It would be nice too that you had to map out the dungeon like you did in the NES era of games.

I feel the wii u will have alot in common with the super nintendo...

after the video games crash nintendo called their console an entertainment system, to make people think it wasn't a video game and gain their trust. 5 years later they released the super nintendo, with less  peripherals and more core games: at the time was RPGs.

nintendo is trying to do the same with the wii u, but rather than RPGs it will have FPSs for the core market. just like the nes, the wii used loads of sports games and shuffleware to get people to buy it.

hopefuly this will mean a new age of 16 bit gems, or as they would be called later 1080p gems.

thanks for reading my first post of many on this awsome site!

I first want to say something about the poster who referred to him/herself as a career gamer. Though I never heard the term before today, it makes me think of a game tester/programmer/designer. It would be somebody who not only loves and plays video games, but somebody who's CAREER involves GAMES, which is actually something I'm currently attending college for, specifically game programming. That's my opinion, take it for what you will. No offense intended.

As for the term "Hardcore Gamer" nobody can deny that it brings to mind different criteria for different people. As a kind of umbrella term, I think of it as meaning somebody who considers video games a primary form of entertainment for them or dedicates a large percentage of their spare time to video games. I feel this is a good definition since it is usually used in contrast to Casual Gamer, which the name itself defines it as somebody who only plays on occasion.

On to my opinions on the potential success of the WiiU. From a business perspective, I think they're making some really good decisions. For starters, backwards compatability sells because it's the company giving direct acknowledgement to their previous consumers. They're saying, "We understand you may have spent a good chunk of money on our last system, so we want you to be able to enjoy our previous works along side what we're doing now." This was a big selling point for the Playstation consoles since me and my father were consumers of the PS1. This was also a factor when I bought my GBA because I knew I'd be able to play the older games.

Another plus is that, while they are clearly striving to keep the casual base they have built, they are also trying to improve their hardcore base (see my definition above) by catching up graphically and getting some serious games and 3rd party support rather than sticking to what seems like just a sequence of mini-games thrown together. They are trying to get back what Sony and MS took from them over the past few console generations.

At the same time, they seem to understand that because they have so much catching up to do in order to appeal to the wider demographic. To do so, they have gotten a head start on the competition. The general consensus that I've heard and agree with is that the 360 won't get a successor for at least 2-3 years and the PS4 won't be around for at least 5+. I suspect this will lead to many people being more willing to buy the new system because it won't currently conflict with their desire to purchase a different system, similarly to the launch of the 360.

Now I have heard a few desenters and I have no doubt that there are bugs to be worked out and decisions may not be 100% final yet, so it's hard to give an accurate estimate of the system's success. That said, I would guess that the WiiU will be a success, even if their ability to attract the hardcore gamers back is still in question.

Ok, because I'm not a rabid fanboy, I refuse to talk about Nintendo any more on this site.

http://www.ebgames.com.au/wiiu 

Found it.  It was at the Aussie EBGames site, not on the US site.

$598 AU seems a little steep.  $108 AU for games seems to be a little much as well.

I think these prices may be slightly inflated. :D

Do you think Nintendo will succeed in getting back into the hardcore market with the Wii U?

It'll be an uphill battle for them. IMO, it's gonna go down like this:

1) Initially, Nintendo fanbois like me who can afford to will pile in to buy the Wii U, leading to a good early launch.

2) Late launch window, things will start to peter off. At this point, there will be games for the system, but most of these games can already be played quite well on an Xbox360 or PS3.

3) Post-launch will slowly pick up as a few exclusive games come out, but developer confusion on how to use the system will lead to a lack of demand.

4) Too far away to make predictions this far in advance. Clearly there'll be a big boost when Smash Bros. comes out, but that'll be years down the line.

Really, if Nintendo launches the system with a DESIRABLE pack-in, I think they could do extremely well. Wii Sports was an effective pack-in for the Wii because it drew in so many non-gamers and evangelized the Wii. However, most gamers really didn't care for it and experience buyer's remorse. A pack-in of Mario would pretty much guarantee that gamers wouldn't feel that way. And truthfully, it's almost always gamers who are early adopters. So Nintendo for the first 2 months should pack in traditional Mario game, then offer a different SKU for (or completely change over to) a more casual game as casual gamers *start* purchasing the system.

Nintendo really needs to avoid launching with a huge game, though. This sounds counter-intuitive, but it almost worked for them on the 3DS. The thing is that many publishers are afraid of releasing their games at the same time as a Nintendo game because Nintendo's game will canabalize their sales. Even if it's not during the launch of a Nintendo game, it's still a possibility, as most of Nintendo's gamers are evergreen titles. As a pack-in, Mario prevents buyer's remorse and gives a strong exclusive that will really put players over to buy the system. However, if packed-in, other publishers don't have to worry about it eating into their sales. It didn't work as well for the 3DS because there were only 2 quality launch titles: Super Street Fighter and Ridge Racer. However, a lot of people already had Street Fighter and many weren't interested in Ridge Racer.

I think Nintendo could do well to launch with an F-zero game, though. It's the kind of game that will not immediately eat into sales of other games as the series is kinda hibernating, but will become popular as the other games are waning in popularity when people discover how awesome it is. So to me, that's how they should launch.

But even though that's how they should launch, I have no idea how they WILL launch. Nobody does.

In the long-term, they might have a problem with their console being underpowered compared to the next Xbox and the PS4. They're launching before everyone else, whereas they launched after everyone else with the Wii, so they'll have at least a year where they will have the strongest system around. And then for another year, most developers won't know how to leverage the power of the new Xbox/PS4. But after that, Nintendo will be fighting an uphill battle and banking on the theory that games won't really look that much better since they already look so good. I don't really buy that argument yet, as they used that argument last time with the Wii... >.>

I think that the next Xbox/PS4 will have so much excess power available that it'll make possible some incredibly interesting technologies, like truer artificial intelligences/personalities, true speach recognition, truer physics, and vast potential for procedurally-generated content. The industry looks like it doesn't even want to touch those advantages, though, and they might be relegated the PC market. If that happens, the Wii U will be very successful.

So bottom line: Launch we have no idea about since we don't know what exclusives Nintendo will have. Lifetime, it depends on whether the console industry is actually willing to use the excess power of the next Xbox and PS4 for anything other than graphics. If they just look slightly better, the Wii U will be successful. If the next Xbox and PS4 support totally new experiences via new technologies, the Wii U will suffer because it may be incapable of that.

Pinball: shuffleware => shovelware

After mulling it over for a week now I can't really say I'm 100% convinced to buy this console, certainly not at launch. I dunno I kinda feel a slight vibe of "been there done that" Nintendo looks at one aspect of gaming which is control and decides "What the the hell, might as well turn it on it's head," I just feel this whole WiiPad thing mildly gimmicky (not to say other consoles aren't without their gimmicks but it seems over the top.)

I kinda feel Nintendo is going for the "hardcore" crowd because they have major doubts that their current market isn't really interested in buying new hardware, or even their Wii. It's not uncommon to hear about people buying said Wii playing it avidly for 3 months and then using it as a dust collector. Going for that market makes sense in terms of units sold, I mean Wii's software sales were abysmal for how many consoles were purchased but at the same time aren't they worried about consumer skepticism? Nintendo for two generations now has kind of ignored the demands of "hardcore" gamer and now that they're on our doorstep with a nice box of chocolates and roses we're supposed to take em in?

If online gets fixed and there is great third party support and 3rd party exclusives I'm sold. At the moment though I'm not engrossed.

Also I'd like to condemn you all as fanboys and Nintendo cultists ;3

Nintendo! Nintendo! Nintendo!

Resistence is futile!

You will be assimilated!

One of Us! One of Us!

Mwhahahahahahahahahaha!