You know I hate to say it, but if I think about it, It seems like it's tied to the consoles:

Pre nintendo: Arcade cabinets (largely japanese games companies) and pc gaming (typically more local)
8-bit: Nintendo, Sega
16-bit: Nintendo, Sega
32-bit: Nintendo, Sega, Sony

we hit the PS2 era and lagely it's still japanese influence, Xbox comes onto the scene and around the same time there's a rise in the American model.

Current Gen:

Even before the Sony hack, the Playstation name has been flatering with Xbox taking a strong possition. On top of this we also see a much stronger resurgance in PC gaming. (I'd hazard to say that PC gaming is the strongest it's been since the 80's)

So when you really boil it down, Why is the american model taking over?

Cause Bill Gates threw money at it.

Seriously though, while I don't doubt that plays a large part of it, there are other factors which I think have played to this:

~25 years of one model dominating means we want something fresh
~All you violent Americans love waving guns around, giving rise in popularity to the FPS genre. ;p

I've got a topic twister for your weekly wringer Commodore:

This shift has happened, no doubt, but another thing has happened at the same time: Video Games have gotten much much easier, especially when you consider things like regenerating health, frequent checkpoints, frequent autosaves, penaltyless death. The feeling of risk, or fear of death has all been eliminated. "I'll just run in if I die, whatever it doesn't matter."

I defy you to try and use that mentality in System Shock, Doom, or Diablo.

So here's my question to you: Do you think the American model is responsible for this change in difficulty, lowering the bar to help make gaming more appealing to new gamers?

I have to ask cause as pissed of as many of us were at the time, maybe Squaresoft was right. Maybe to appeal to the american audience they needed to put out a trimmed down 'easy' version of the game (FFIV).

There are two main reasons I don't enjoy japanese games the way I used to:

1. They haven't grown with their audience.

2. They implement the same formulas worse than they used to.

Take something like Final Fantasy VII-as a thirteen year old that game was mind blowing. It had far more emotional depth than any game I had played up to that point and the story, while convoluted, was deeper and more compelling than anything else at the time. Fast forward to today, let's say they did an HD remake, and it would be bloody ridiculous.  It would hold up next to a shonen anime but that is not a compliment when your competition is Naruto. A game which sold itself on its maturity would seem juvenile to today's adult gaming audience and kids are too interested in Call of Duty and Mass Effect to take notice.

That's what marks the shift-the rise of the console FPS. It's a fast, frenetic mode of play that can't be matched by the console RPGs and platformers that ruled the roost prior to this generation. The depth of the story and the length of the gameplay has taken a backseat to purely skill based affairs which are more concerned with getting your adrenaline pumping than touching your emotions or making you think.  Something like Mass Effect could be considered an exception but everything it does is still held within that framework. I'd say this is just part of a natural cycle where we get tired of one thing, do something else for a while, and maybe we'll see a comeback from the old way of things down the road. We don't really see many platformers these days but the fact that Mario is still alive and kicking and Sucker Punch announced a new Sly Cooper makes me think they could return to the top of the heap at some point.

As far as old formulas being done worse, I present exhibit A, FFXIII. It has all the basic trappings of a traditional jRPG without any of the complexity or exploration that made the earlier games in the series so endearing, and it's a prime example of what I was talking about when I said FF VII's narrative would fall flat with today's audience.  FFXIII has a further disadvantage in that very few of its characters are likeable, but seeing as the basic framework of the plot is lifted right from VII I doubt it would have been received much better had they switched the cast.

Another major issue with that game and jRPGs in general is that they've gotten more and more overdesigned as our tech has improved. You don't even have to look at a current gen RPG to see it, just compare something like Chrono Trigger to FFX. The costumes in that game are bloody ridiculous, and the world itself doesn't fare much better. In their attempts to give Spira its own unique feel they went completely overboard and created something that looked funny for the sake of looking funny. That trend continues into the modern day and while I thought that kind of thing was cool as hell when I was a kid it just doesn't appeal to my adult self.

What makes western games work? I think a lot of it is that the biggest market for console games is now the west, and even though most of the "mature" fare we have is based on a twelve-year-old's idea of what's cool the fact that our games feature less over-designed set pieces and the spectacle is mostly relegated to huge explosions (which occur during gameplay) makes them more palatable to the modern audience than the older model.

Personally, I don't think the solution for Japan is to become more western but to mature and innovate concepts they've previously introduced.  Square should be taking notes from Atlus, not Bioware. Persona 3 and 4 are both excellent representations of what I want from a jRPG as an adult (which is funny considering the games center around teenagers). The game world is stylish yet grounded, the characters are based on cliches but they're given enough depth that they feel like three-dimensional people, they don't shy away from serious issues like sexuality or death, and the gameplay is deep enough to provide plenty of strategy without interrupting the flow of the game.

Here's something else those games do really, really well: while the main story is entirely linear the relationships you form with the characters, both your party and NPCs, can play out in many different ways and not only does that change the social dynamics, it directly impacts your combat capabilities down the road. The biggest complaint I have about many japanese games is that they feel like they're on rails in every single regard and the only reason I'm there is because the game needs me to press a few buttons so it can complete itself. When there's nothing to explore and I have no impact on the story, not even in the subtle ways Persona allows, I lose interest fast. I end up going back to older games which did it better and that is why they've fallen from grace with me.

A lot of them really need to take a page from Nintendo's book. Their franchises are distinctly japanese yet they're doing very well for themselves, and why? Because even though they're doing the same thing they've always done they do it as well (or better) than the old days and they give their games an all-ages appeal. In many ways they're the Pixar of the gaming world. Even your ultra-serious hardcore gamers melt a little when you hand them a copy of the latest Mario game,  and Zelda plays on timeless mythology so well it's nearly timeless itself. 

My feelings are that if Japan goes in a more western direction it'll only make things worse. They took over the gaming world by doing something different. If they want to win back the mind-share they've lost they'll need to do that again. If they can manage that without over-the-top melodrama and impossible hairdos, all the better.

I think the answer to the question has alot to do with the american culture itself, to generalize the common parent who goes to wal-mart to buy a video game for their child are going to stick with what they as a parrent can best understand aswell as what they think their son will enjoy, so for example they are more likely to buy nascar over Sūpāsupesharurēshinguhīrōzu 2 and thats because no matter how much we don't want to admit it, as americans we ARE going to go with the more familiar choice (American Choice), in the day of the NES - SNES this wasn't a problem because the graphics weren't good enough to seem alien to american audiences, nothing really seemended overly japanesse about Mario or Mega Man, but now that they are good enough people might tend to stay away because they don't understand it and when people don't understand things they tend to avoid it or dislike it all toghter rarely do people try new things it's a classic case of the mother telling her child to try a new food and the child refuseing going on to say he/she dislikes that food for the rest of his/her life

So in Summery the reason why the american model is working better in america (IN MY OPPION) is because americans who grow up around the american culture are going to make choices that are are the result of being around the american culture in, this case picking games that more resemble a american style.

Maybe my reasoning might be circular I'm not sure. I think developers that create and maintian the best intellectual property franchises are going to be able to sell the most games, and therefore survive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games

tl:dr version of the link below.

Xbox: Call of Duty, Gears of War, Grand Theft Auto, Fable

Nintendo: Zelda, Pokemon, Mario

Playstation: Gran Trismo, Call of Duty, Uncharted, Metal Gear

PC: The Sims, Warcraft, Starcraft, Half-Life

Nintendo is able to compete with western developers because they know to create and maintain franchises. Other Japanese devs just need to emulate the franchise model. Find a success and market, sequel, market, sequel, rinse, market, repeat, market, sequel, market. I reject any explainations that invovle the japanese or western "character", the failure in parts of the Japanese game dev market is just a failure in business culture.

My first post!

I agree with a lot of Cado's comments.  Japanese games today are exactly like Japanese games of the 90's, except more so.  Look at Pokemon - the engine is the same as it was for Blue and Red, except it has a metric ton of bells and whistles attached to it - where's the innovation?  While JRPG's, for instance, were always heavily story-driven (in contrast to the more open-plan American RPG's) - today we have FFXIII, playing which is akin to walking down a long, narrow corridor while someone talks at you.  Your skill (or otherwise) doesn't affect the unfolding of the story in the slightest.  American games like Red Dead Redemption and GTA offer at least the illusion of freedom.  Also eating away at the JRPG like a cancer is the prevalence of wangst; almost every JRPG now suffers from moody, self-pitying, and thoroughly unlikeable protagonists (I think FFVIII started the rot).  Why would you spend 30 or 40 hours in the presence of a character (or characters) who spend the first part of a game spouting sub-Neitzschean nihilism, and the second part discovering the Power of Love and Trust (tm)? This character arc is so predictable (and so frequently used - try and think of a modern JRPG without one) that I despair whenever I see it.  The characters in Chrono Trigger, or Shining Force, were (for the most part) emotionally uncomplicated - good.

It's a question of cultures and markets.  When a young family buys a Wii they buy it for party games and Wii fit (and maybe a sports game for the teenage boy).  They don't want complexity or something that requires a great investment of time and emotion.  The people who bought JRPG's in the 90's (like me!) are still here - we've just been swamped by the masses of new consumers into the market.  Don't underestimate the switch from a niche market to a mainstream (well, almost) one.  Copies of Sonic 2 sold - 6 million.  Copies of Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 sold - 5 million in 24 hours.

On the other hand, a lot of American games offer a sort of pick-up-n-play escapism (no convoluted story to follow) and - importantly - have mastered the art of the multiplayer.  Stereotypically "American" games like FPS's are well suited to online play.  You can't play an RPG with friends.

I actually think the slow death of the Japanese game is something to mourn (since in my simplistic world-view Japan=RPG's and the brilliant games of my youth, while America=conveyor belt FPS's and racing games...yawn).  No one's going to look back on Call of Duty with especial warmth in twenty years time, as people are doing now with Sonic.

FFVIII really is the start of the decline. It wasn't straight down from there, which is why I chose X-2 over it, but everything from the needless complexity to the overwrought narrative characterizes what went wrong with jRPGs from the PS2 onward.

It reminds me of a brief article I wrote on RPG battle systems: http://www.lordkat.com/blog/2653/what-if-rpg-battle-systems.html

To re-iterate some of my questions from there: why haven't we seen an RPG where using spells on the actual environment would yield a tactical advantage? Why can't you effect the outcome of the next cutscene by killing the boss in a certain way? Why do old tropes like, "this boss is immune to status spells for no apparent reason" persist when these games would be far more compelling if you could use your whole arsenal and the difficulty was adjusted accordingly?

I love turn based RPGs but most all of them that have come out in the last five years bore me to death because it's blatently obvious what I need to do and I'm just picking the option in the menu that makes it happen. I'm not being forced to think and that's the whole point of that kind of system. Take that away and I'd be better off reading a novel or playing something action oriented like a brawler or a platformer. 

Again, I have to praise Persona 3 and 4. While they adhere to the old trope of "grind if you're having trouble" there's never really a point where you can forego strategy altogether. Every enemy has strengths and weaknesses and you've got to be ready to exploit them (not to mention guard your own) if you want to make it through the game. It isn't especially deep but it's a lot more fun than what most other RPGs are doing these days and it really makes me wonder why Square hasn't adopted a Persona-esque system for its summons. 

Hell, I still don't get why they haven't refined the good but poorly utilized ideas they had in the past. Junctioning has tons of potential if you strip away the need to draw magic and you add some penalties so every choice comes with give-and-take.  The biggest issue I have with most games in the FF series is that you can make every character a carbon copy of every other character without restriction or penalty and that removes any depth the complexity of their systems could possibly offer. That's something which started way back in FFVI but it didn't become a problem until VIII onward.

Convolution does not equal depth, nor does it make for compelling gameplay. Genuine complexity does. The Sphere Grid is a bad example because while it looks impressive your characters are stuck on a linear path for most of the game, and when you do get some choice it's to branch out into other character's grids. It doesn't do anything a traditional leveling system doesn't, it just adds a layer of tedium because you have to do it manually. The materia system is an example of this done right because for most of the game you have reasons to give each of your main characters a different setup with different tradeoffs. It offered depth not just because you could do anything you wanted but because equipping materia came with certain penalties and you had to decide what the optimal tradeoffs were for a tactically viable party. If they're going to keep remaking the 90s I'd at least like them to reach that level of quality with the systems they design.

Yep, I totally and enthusiastically concur with most of what you're saying (especially the questions in the 3rd paragraph).

This may be tempting a lynching but I think FFVII is responsible for a lot of the worst features of today's JRPG's.  Materia customisation is such that the only thing that differs Tifa from Barrett (for example) is their Limit Breaks.  Fine, you can swap materia - but must of the time you're just swapping generic roles (fighter/magic user/healer etc) rather than creating unique, personalised configurations.

And the protagonist - wangsty to the nth degree, Cloud is truly the father of Squall.  The story - weird, baffling, and poorly translated.  How many times did you ask yourself, on the first playthrough - "who am I chasing, again?  And why?  Is Sephiroth dead or alive?  Why is Cloud freaking out, exactly?  So Tifa knew Cloud was lying...but she just kept quiet about it?!" - and so on.  I was 12 at the time, but even revisiting a decade on the story still seems poorly and inarticulately told; contrast this to FFVI, which is completely comprehensible, and yet complex.

Ordinarily FFVII would just be an interesting case study of the ways in which a franchise begins deteriorating, but since it was such a breakthrough game (in the American market), and so imitated, it's vital to understanding the slow death of the JRPG.

VII is a double edged sword because I'm sure that if it wasn't for that we wouldn't have seen the slew of excellent jRPGs which came from that era.  On the other hand I agree that the game is a bit of a mess, it definitely doesn't stand up to the test of time. I acknowledge its ambition and its achievements but I can't say I'll ever go back to it. It's basically VI but worse-it's the kind of game that made me realize when I did get my hands on VI that that was the game I wanted to play all along.

We could also include the fact that gaming isn't really a nich hobby anymore. If we look at the third generation of consoles[Which was when Japan invaded the world with video games (sorry always had a flare for the dramatic)] we can look at how many units were sold. The NES in it's life cycle sold around 61.91 million and the Sega Master System sold around 13 million. This is co small feat of course but when you compare it to the sixth generation  when things arguably got turned around to a more western approach the PS2 has sold (as of January 2011 but still this just shows gamings mass appeal in general even to when it was launched) 150 million alone, not including it's competitors the PS2's console sales have utterly destroyed the 3rd gen. Take into account the sales of the Nintendo Gamecube, the Xbox and technically the Sega Dreamcast which altogether is 56.34 million units sold. It's crazy, absolutely crazy.

This doesn't even blow back then out of the water, it almost retcons gaming as a sub-culture entirely. So gaming is arguably more accessible now, and with a new audience comes new expectations. We certainly did have choices in software in the 8-bit era leading to the ugly polygon era, but I would argue more gamers were accepting of the increadibly obtuse and contrived methods of japanese game development. We were willing to sit through long dialog lines of melodramatic text, we were cool with turn based fighting and clunky menu interfaces. We as gamers of the forgotten times (excuse the drama again) we okay with these archaic design philosophies but the real question was were they(new audience)?

Sit your average gamer of this generation infront of almost any old school "hardcore" dedicated game, and they will most likely question why the protagonists are having a stare off with a group of wild wolves, or why dialog boxes are not skipable etc. A good example of this is when I bought my new SNES and Chrono Trigger, a game I played on the playstation but that's neither here nor there. Being already in love with the game and JRPGs in general (though god knows why) I decided to have a good friend of mine who aside from Pokemon never played a JRPG growing up, the result was mildly disaterous he eventually rage quit after Yakra said balls to it and moved on.

Now this is a bit of a stretch in terms of evidence but I will argue that even though gaming isn't a nich hobby the conventions and contrivaties in Japanese produced games are still very much an acquired taste. There's a few reasons for that, one in Japan gaming was already an established past time there was need to adapt to an audience that already enjoyed your product. Japanese developers have gotten really complacent (infact that could be said about most publishers/ developers) because of the golden age of gaming, and often at times declaring that certain directions in the industry are just gimmicks/fads.

Let's also take into account the PC market, and how that's really never been conquered by Japanese development. A lot of these western studios either had their start in PC game dev or were youngsters playing PC games. Cliffy B for instance created the Epic Games juggernaut Gears of War (love it or hate it that's not what's up for debate) he got his start as far as I can remember on Unreal Tournament as a level designer (UT btw is one of the best mindless shooters EVER!)

In regards to the question of difficulty being cut in games which was brought up by Aestolia. I will no doubt argue that games are easier now with certain design philosophies such as regenerating health and frequent check points. I will however argue that we look at game difficulty in the past with rose tinted glasses. Mario, was not hard. Zelda , was not hard and was made even easier when Nintendo Power did it's more or less complete walkthrough of the game. Castlevania and Megaman1-6 I won't argue they were difficult but if you threw in a few hours a day you could breeze by all those games in an hour or less (not Simon's Quest but to hell with that gameyou need a faq for it anyway,) We also seem to forget that we were children during the hay day of these titles. Children don't tend to pick on nuances and certain paterns as much as much as we'd like to think they do, they're no means dumb but I would say were less inclined to notice paterns and sequences in coding.

For instance although Metal Man is one of the easier robot masters in Megaman 2 if you do not understand that 90% of the time he only shoots when you shoot you are going to have a bitch of a time taking the guy down. The minute you realise this and implement it into your gameplay he may as well derobe and bend over.

I also don't long for the days when I hit a chapter check point with little to no health and am completely screwed for the next enemy encounter to hell with that.

I do find the abuse of scripted events/ triggers insane in modern FPS.

American developers really have Xbox to thank for the new movement to an American video game standard and also the fall of Sega from a console developer also played a part. Before Xbox there hasnt been a competent American made console on the moarket, Sure you had atari 7200 and jaguar but by that point the atari name didnt have much respect with it. Before Xbox the market had 3 Japanese consoles Sega, Sony, and Nintendo. But something happened Sega started losing its foothold on the market. Playstation was the new kid on the block and handing Sega its own while Nintendo was doing its own thing. And when it came to the 4th gen another new kid appeared Microsoft. Sega was hurting from the Saturn and put all its marbles on the Dreamcast. But the market couldnt handle 4 consoles. Sony had its Playstation 2 on the way and the Nintendo j]had its little cube that could while Microsoft had its powerful Xbox. Somehad to go and Sega fell by the waistside opening up market share for an American console. Now think for a minute PC gaming at this point was kinda unsteady, Microsoft made PC so where did PC gamers and Devolpers go to? The Xbox and with it the game that pretty muchs opened up the current gen Halo. There where FPSs on consoles before Halo N64 really showed it could be done with Goldeneye and Perfect Dark but Halo perfected it. Now the new kid on the block showed that American gaming still had its place it wouldnt be until the 360 days that American developers really hit their strides but the Xbox opened up the floodgate. If you look at American games they really focus on non linear gameplay. Americans like explosions and to feel like theyre in charge and that their decisions matter (democracy anyone?) So take FPSs that have guns and explosions and western RPGs and MMORPGs that focus on a more nonlinear style and your decisions matter approach then most JRPGS. Finally take something that most Americans cant live without the social network. Americans love wi-fi multiplayer facing friends and strangers from their living room as much as they like facebook meeting friends and keeping in contact with them from whereever. Who needs local multiplayer when they can face anyone they want without having to invite anyone over, who needs to pay attention in clase or while waiting in line when they have facebook on their phone. The American market always loved guns look at atari its filled with shooters... well space shooters but it still has games that go boom and have pixels that look like bullets. And Americans love the new tech iphones and other social network phones are popular so you combine shooting with social network and you get the bulk of what got American Developers back into the video game market. While Japenese Deveopers are in an awkward position they have to change what theyve been doing for years now and while some are selling to the niche market of anime style JRPGs and text heavy adventures. Others are awkwardly trying to take a shift and add American development styles into their games. While Nintendo has a different approach first with Wii after the Gamecube failed to get a stellar market share Nintendo, instead of fighting xbox at their own game, went with a different strategy of trying to pull in people wo havent been playing games thus tapping into a new Market and making more profit then Sony and Microsoft. The DS proved to be a huge step forward in gaming thanks to popularizing touchscreen controls while the Wii brought motion gaming but as the DS only got stronger the Wii has recently stumbled late in its life. Now even Nintendo is in an awkward position, by ignoring this new market they lost the core gaming crowd, the people who buy games. There are plenty of great games on Wii but most people who bought Wii werent gamers and thus didnt buy many games. Sony on the other hand embraced American developers and took on Microsoft while some may say Sony fell from grace theis gen they still managed to keep a foot in the core market and have finally started seeing profit from game sales.  Nintendo is in an awkward place right now, the 3DS itself is aimed at the family audience the Wii had like motion control the 3DS seems to be aimed at getting people together the built in AR games and Face Raiders seem to show that off, while at the same time Nintendo is enticing its lost audiences with 3D remakes of beloved classica and intoduce newer players to classics. While the Wii U seems to be Nintendos real ace up their sleeves targeting the DS audience (the fact that the controller has a screen shows that, if the DS has had any other impact beyond touchscreen controls is that 2 screens really help to streamline certain gaming experiences) and the core audience by enticing the American developers. Sony is in an even more awkward place and is betting the Bank on the PSV aimed towards social networkers with its 3G features and keeping the core audience satisfied with its control imputs. While Microsoft is in a rather comfortable position XBox360 is now started to make real profit with game sales and Kinect is targeting and chipping away at the Wii's audince... WOW i think that i got off topic hmmmm i think the point i was trying to make is that the American 3rd and First party developers are leading when it comes to games because they target American needs. Guns, explosions, social network, and non linear gameplay. While Japanase developers target more linear gameplay, and single player experiences. With the exceptions being Nintendo who targets the broad family based games, nostalgia, and all ages gameplay and Sony following more in Microsoft's suit.

Chrono Cross Soundtrack - download (Only video game soundtrack I would buy for $60 but I am not going to spend that much for a used copy. Sqaure-Enix should re-release the soundtrack again.)

The American model? Would it be because Americans are very patriotic? (Only reason why I think people keep buying/repairing the Xbox 360 even after the console died on them five or six times.)

Could be MWM I mean look at the American car industry...

Also who are these people who have 2-4 incidents of 360 hardware failure I've yet to meet one. But all over online there's tons of people posting about how they've gone through 2-5 Xboxes but I'm sorry if you find that the product isn't living up to your standards why in the hell do you keep buying it.

that wasn't directed at anybody I just can't imagine buying something you have troubles with. I enjoy my 360 but the minute that thing croaks it's out the door or off a bridge.

most of what was stated the japanese games have stayed the same but the audiance grew up and then they wanted more mature games and the japaneses games werent able to live up to there expextations while the american games seem to be focused on givin gthem what they want a mature expericance which feels like its new and made for some one older than the standard game from japan that ends up over here.

And there also the fact that Call of Duty has pretty much taken over the ps3 and 360 markets over here and people for reasons not seen by myself are willing to buy a game that seems to be like what happend with the japanese games just relaseing the same thing over again with some improvments to the games while only minorly tweeking the major elements of the games.

Yeah the CoD craze is just that though imo, since Activision is dead set on a new CoD a year I can see it over saturating it's own market. That and the complete and utter lack or care for the PC market from CoD is just beyond confusing. There will be other games that kids doped up on hormones and red bull will buy.

Thanks for the mention. ^_^ Ahhh well uh, I didn't think I'd post anything substantial this week but oh well. *Hugs?*

 Some very good arguments have already been made.

Mario does continue his wide appeal with his superb refinement in terms of gameplay and such while never overstepping his more simplistic core.

I mourn the JRPG genre. I really do. I also noticed that MANY of the RPG's coming out of Japan these days are either action RPGs with an active time battle, or Strategy RPGs requiring lengthy imputs just to HIT an enemy. I miss turn based games. Pah...

Style is one thing Japan has in abundance, and while I don't mind the ocassional bishounen, there are LOTS of characters in jRPGs these days which frankly scare the hell out of me. None of them I would care to meet in a back alley or even a brightly lit forum. And yes, it did start happening more often when they went to the 3D realm of the 32 bit era. I think NIS (Nippon-Ichi Software) is able to hold my interest because their characters are fun quicky creations, so I'd highly recommend the Mana Khemia/Atelier Iris series and Disgaea. They're about as 'fluffy' as jRPGs get without having too dire a plot.

Like Anime however, you either LIKE it or you don't. There is still a major stigma here in American culture where the vast majority consider cartoons to be "for kids".  Usually this is not a bad thing, but a 'kid' getting a jrpg is going to do what my friend Chris told a woman who bought him FFII "You wasted  $70 on this?" Granted, he came back around and became a fan eventually, but most would probably return it the same day even if they did purchase it. Partly for being 'too hard'.

The thing I've also liked about Anime is that it's been able to grow with me. There's a lot of variety to be had, from the simple and childish, to the older and more mature. Even outside of games though there's been an effort to perfect the 'mindfuckery' that turns off an American player when mis-applied. And for every hit there seem to be 7 or 8 misfires. Tempering needs to be done in the quality control departmenton these things.

Culturally however, the jump from childish to adult tends ro go to extremes. There are tons of Japanese games which are dating sims and essentially porn material. That... doesn't jive with American culture at large.

Another problem we face is translation quality and voice acting. Engrish in the 80s/90s was cute. Past the millenium it is laughable at best and annoying with possible misdirection at worst. Then we also add in the factor of characters having voices. I mentioned liking NIS, but their voice acting is over-the top to say the least. It works with their cartoonish graphics and games (many still 2D sprite adventures lovingly rendered), but when you have more realistic graphics.. the melodrama can pass the line from believable to ludicrous QUICKLY. And that's not even getting into the different levels of politeness in the Japanese language.

As a quick example, Sonic's always been known to be rude in America, but when someone studies his manner of speech in Japan, he talks in a very rude, flippant way that doesn't TECHNICALLY translate. Even when he says "I am sonic the Hedgehog" he says "Ore wa Sonikku za hejihoggu!" instead of "Boku wa" or "Watashi wa". This is a forceful or cocky way of saying something. Although "I am Sonic the Hedgehog" is a literal translation, the snark is lost. So then it falls on the voice actor to convey the meaning behind it.

Then we get to the American market and we really do want things to pick up and play. As much as I like jRPGs, I tend to only play them on weekends when I have time to sit and spend with them. After a hard day's work, or even the middle of the day at lunch break, what do I pull out? Platforming games, puzzle games, rythm games, things that don't require a lot of thought. And while my library is still very japanese - Klonoa, Elite Beat Agents,  Mario, etc. it is very portable or easy to get into.

Now if we are getting into more elaborate games, the one big thing about American gaming that is different is the branching paths you can take. With jRPGs, they are very largely linear. Crono Trigger is undoubtedly the best example I can think of an older game where your  choices really count for something (with at least 13 endings). Why hasn't this trend continued? Most new RPGs out of Japan only have 2 or 3 endings at best it seems, so there isn't a lot of cause and effect outside of maybe gaining A character in the ranks or not.

16-Bit gems mentioned how the Satellaview versions of the Zelda games added things like timed events to the game which affected the overall play. Instead of seeing more of this, I've seen less.

So that's really my thoughts on the matter. My problem with American gaming is that I don't like the sandboxes they have to offer. I don't like FPS for the most part. It took Metroid Prime to get me to play one.

On the issue of PC gaming, I think that is another major factor. As Home computers and even laptops have gotten more power, game consoles are no longer the only reliable media for high quality games to exist in. And even then, it's changed from things like the Monkey Island series to WOW.

My thoughts are a bit scattered lol.....

Things Japan has taught me...

1. All old men are perverts.

2. Barbie's anatomy is just fine.

3. Spikey gravity defying hair is a must for any hero worth his salt. :)

I think PC Gaming is a really big factor in the shift. A lot of American game manufacturers years ago were more concerned with the PC market than they were with consoles. I think there were probably a number of factors involved, like the relatively weak specs of previous generations, the ease of development for the PC and possibly the number of computers there were compared to consoles.

I think the shift though really started with the original XBox... this was basically a low end PC with a stripped down version of the windows OS including directX which was very big in the PC games industry. This allowed high end games that were being developed for the PC to also be ported over to the XBox (Doom3, Half Life 2, etc) Now the consoles are "good enough"  they started to be the primary focus of development, now competing with the Japanese developers.

An interesting thought occured to me while writing this though... I remember reading somewhere that Nintendo didn't like to make their consoles with experimental parts, but rather with already tested parts. Which is why the Wii is essentially a Gamecube deep down. Where as the the 360 and PS3 both went for the more power route, to appeal to the more hardcore gamer. This seems to represent the ideologies of the Japanese and the American developers: worry about making the game fun vs worry about making the game look good and run smoothly.

One last thing, I agree with the Commodore about GTA4... game looked great but any of the GTA3's were so much more fun to play than 4. I can't tell you how many times I've sworn my face off when my car hits a obstacle that you think it should go through, like in GTA3, but instead caused you to fly out the windshield! Probably the main reason I haven't finished that game.

Ok enough rambling

I'm sorry, but this just has to be asked. Why do people keep crediting Atlus as a great developer. They don't develop games. To my knowledge, they haven't created a single game ever. They only do localizations. It drives me nuts, not just because it shows your ignorance, but because it takes credit away from the actual creators of these games. Atlus gets credited with all the Shin Megami titles, Persona titles, Demon Souls, the list goes on. They are basically translators being haled as the greatest developers of all time. If you people love these games so much, why not give credit to the people who actually made the game.

Now this doesn't mean I hate Atlus. Far from it. They have an unbelievable ability to spot a game that consumers will love. If it wasn't for them, we may have never been gifted with any of the previously mentioned titles. Hell, NIS may not even exist right now if not for them bringing Disgaea to foreign soil. That is not only one of my favorite games of all time, but was such a huge underground success that it caused Nippon Ichi Software to open up an American branch just for localizations. SMT: Nocturne is another game I really enjoyed that Atlus brought over.

Just to clarify again, this isn't a rant against Atlus. This is a rant about the consumers. It's like if you came up with a great idea and told your co-worker, who then recieves all the credit when he shows it to your boss. Give credit where it is due. Atlus gets credit for being able to spot the diamonds in the rough, not for smashing the coal into something beautiful.

Not to be that guy but...

The first sentence of Atlus' wikipedia page states.

"Atlus (株式会社アトラス, Kabushiki-gaisha atorasu^?) is a Japanese computer and video game developer, publisher, and distributor based in Tokyo, Japan, best known for developing the console role-playing game franchise Megami Tensei."

I mean you could chalk that up to it being a wikipedia page but it also states this on Atlus' website, which if false would mean big legal trouble for Atlus.

Reading through all of the posts on here about the generations of consoles I think are all very good to what it is but I think the biggest issue here is really the cultural differences between Japan and America now, even more so then yesterday.  Japan and America have different trends in the sorts of Video Games they like,  just as in pop cultural of what is popular today and is not tomorrow, Video Games are the same way.  The differences being America goes onto something else where as Japan tends to be going around in a big circle in the sorts of games they like and enjoy.

Take for instance in the 90's when all of the Fighting games and Street Brawler's were all the rage in being made.  There were just tons and tons of them for every console you had.  Which wasn't bad but still, there was a lot and eventually the US got tired of them but many are still always being made in Japan.  Same with RPG's, there were just tons of them never even released in America but Japan got tons and tons of them overall.

If you just follow the trends in gaming on which games were popular as the console generations went by, you will see that the same big types of games America loved and Japan both loved together grow further and further apart.  It is really I think do to that American's do not have a greater love of art as Japan does.  This is why you see so many Anime style games or games that feature a ton of artwork in them.  That sense of art is not as present in American games so much as Americans tend to favor realism in their titles.

To me, that is the greatest reason that we don't see a lot of great Japanese games overhere anymore as that "realism" in games and trend to have the First Person RPG or Shooters are the latest fad to hit the Americas.  What sells, is what gets released here more and less thanks to a board of people who could care less about what you want but what is going to sell and make them money.

Games are business afterall, and regardless of what fans want, it is what sells that we will see on store shelves.  Look at Operation Rainfall and the pathetic press release Nintendo of America gave us for the Nintendo Wii not getting three Japanese AAA titles.  They feel they will not sell here as the scope of Nintendo of America's focus is on the casual market, Mario and Zelda.  They don't care much for anything else at this point, I even worry of Dragon Quest's future in their hands.  Will they release X here or give up since it is not a casual game??

That gritty reaslism in all things now is what making American games the rising force, most Americans are no longer interested in happy cartoon characters but when you look at TV, what do you expect?  Cartoons are terrible of today, I can't recall one good one on TV anymore unless you count the randomness of all the ones they have on TV now.

So really, America is just going through another gaming fad and Japan is continuing to love what they love and always will love, so we Americans who still love these games from the 90's that many others have said, are not getting them anymore because of the dominance of shooters and First Person RPG's (two of the categories I hate most too) so if it wasn't for the Nintendo DS, I would be really out of luck for having my JRPG fix this generation.

I think yes, the whole XBox thing might have a bit to do with it but with the US being the big gaming market it is, I think it is more so from the trend of what is hot in gaming at the time, like Fashion, Video Games go through genre trends that get popular.

I really had to think this topic over.  As a fan of anime and jrpgs I noticed that I have lost interest in the latest from Japan.

Why is this happening?  I'm such a big fan of the stuff why is it that I can't find something I like?

I think many of the reasons I don't like the latest anime also carries over to games.   I grew up with anime like Macross (Robotech), Gundam, Mazinger Z and Saint Seiya.  These shows gave us something that american cartoons didn't... drama, tragedies, hope, dreams.  Situations that overall western cartoons avoided like the plague.  Why?  Because cartoons were for children. But they forgot that some of us were smart and wanted to watch better shows.

When jrpgs showed up on consoles we were shown a world that we had never visited.  Something new and exciting.  Again the drama and other things that made anime great. Who can forget the death of Aeris?  But then something weird started to happen.   There was a shift to give more drama, no matter how fake or impossible it seemed.  Then the cuteness trend...   Japanese anime and games usually had a comic relief character or a cute mascot,  now days it seems every character has to meet this criteria.   Seriously I feel embarrased to watch certain animes now days no matter how good they are just because the character design.  The same can be said for games like FF X-2.  And it seems as more times pases this increases, even shmups have highschool girls in short skirts flying through the skies.   Moe will be the death of anime.

After being the alternative, the smart and interesting topics that jrpgs offered  now days have become some sort of weird kind of fetish.  

Then games like Fallout, Morrowind, Fable, Oblivion,  Neverwinter Nights came out.  Showing what western publishers could do.  Smart, mature and intersting games.  Things we loved about jrpgs.  Games that gave us new better worlds to explore.   

I would like to agree with some of the posts above that the Persona and Shin Megami Tensei games have retained some of what old jrpgs had.  I just hope they don't fall victim to the trend.

I think when Microsoft entered the scene, America became quite dominant for video games and in a sense bullied Japan.  Think back.  Can you think of an American console before the xbox?  At least a succesful one?  Nintendo was Japanese.  Sega was Japanese.  Playstation was Japanese.  Now Sega is essentially dead(this brings a tear to my nostalgic eye) and Microsoft is dominating.  Even Sony, a Japanese company, seems more influenced by American games.  But does that mean Japanese games have gotten worse?  I don't think so.  I think Japanese games have yet to evolve from the PS1 era.  I still love most Japanese games made today, with a few exceptions.  But, they remind me of my nostalgic days.  The new generation of gamers don't have those memories.  So, they are flooded with the dominant market, which is primarily American.  That's what they're growing up with.  Japan hasn't seemed to cater to the new market.  This brings up something I want to point out.

Have the new consoles killed the gaming mascots of my youth?  And if so, how?  I remember back when Sonic was actually a good character.  Now, I can't think of any good Sonic game, asides a compilation one.  I don't know of any Kirby games, though I don't own a Wii, so that might be why.  Mario managed to survive, but why?  How did Mario manage to survive the 2d to 3d evolution while other characters are choking on it?  Could be voice acting.  Seriously.  I think Final Fantasy 10 was ruined partly due to the annoying voice acting, as well as many other factors.  The voice acting in the new Sonic games irritate me like a yeast infection.  Yet, Mario only does generic, "Yahoo, whippee!  mama mia," and that's it.  But, surely it's something more than that.  Something I'm obviously missing.  Which may very well be the 3d.  Most games of my era were platformers.  Well, platformers are great for 2d games!  But 3d?  I'll be honest, most 3d platformers I hate.  Not sure why.  But, I do.  Is that why Sonic is dead?  MegaMan?  VectorMan? 

I forgot to comment on GTAIV.  The reason it wasn't as fun for me is because it took itself way too seriously.  All of the GTAIII games were, though violent, light hearted.  GTAIV was dark and gritty.  I liked it, but it didn't feel like GTA.  Where are the side missions for owning properties?  Pimping?  Putting out fires?  Gone, for a more 'realistic' setting.  When they added in that realism, they took away some charm that was found in GTAIII.  But, that's just my opinion, and I could be wrong.

Most of this stuff has already been said, but im gonna say it anyway.

Its mainly just a change of taste in America and Japan is just doin' what they've been doin' for the past 20 years.  Speaking as someone who has worked at a Japanese corporation (so have my parents and friends, not the same one though), i believe its the corporate mentality of efficientcey and quality thats created an enviroment that only submits to creativity and change when things are dire (which is what's happening now).  This has led to there only being a niche market for Japanese games (although i happen to be appart of that niche).

Now this has been a massive generalization, but still.

Also, if u look at the pre-Nintendo gaming landscape, during the age of Atari and arcades, the major draw to video games was the compatition, fast reflexes, and overall difficulty.  That was back when the point off an arcade machine was to get as many of ur quarters as possible.

That's not to say that changed with Nintendo.  That's the reason Mario, Zelda, MegaMan, Castlevania, and Contra are some of the most fondly remembered games from that generation.  It actually gave u a sence of acheivement when u beat those games.

But then during the 16-bit generation (maybe a bit later) it became more about the experience and the story.  Also it around this time that graphics got good enough that games could have there own artistic style and many Japanese games started to implement an anime style, alienating many more potential gamers.

Now im about to get a little off-topic:

Final Fantasy VII was a big part of meshing the audiences of otakus and gamers.  Have nothing against anime, im into Full Metal Alchemist and the like.  I have nothing against otakus.  My girlfriend is a major otaku.  But when that fan-base got involeved, it became more about spikey-haired emo teenagers venting-out their angst through a massive sword.

Anyway, where was I?  Oh, ya the difficulty.  When it became less about the challenge, and less about the arcade, (it might have led to the death of the arcade, but thats for another discussion) it led to less of a broad apeal and video games in general became more niche.

Then all the fps's and sports games game onto the scene and brought alot of that broad appeall back.  Video games werent for nerds anymore.  They were for testosterone filled teenagers who wanted to shoot their friends in the back of the head and have a good time.  This also brought back the competition and skill aspect.  And all these games were being made in America. 

Nintendo was able to keep hold, yes by nostalgia, but mainly by broadening the market even furthure through the casuall based Wii and DS.

Also the PC and XBox had a lot to do with that as well.

P.S.:  Why the hell did i forget to mention the first Assassin's Creed game last Wringer.  That game was just borring to me.  I have loved every AC game since, though.

Ya, I hated that about GTAIV too.  Thats why I converted to Saints Row.  It took the over-the-top zanyness of the GTAIII games, and brought it to over nine thousand.

Walls of text ... three sitting to read it all. Just wish the page wasn't white.

Plain and simple, up until recently, the gaming industry has been aimed mostly at kids 16 and under.  The past 10 years or so the industry has been adjusting it's focus to include gamers 18 and older.

Aside from that, games were a novelty and not very complex due to the lack of programming space (think Donkey Kong and Mario Bros).

As storage media has become cheaper, more possibilities have opened up and those young gamers of back in the day have grown up and are looking for more mature options.

As a side note, (and I mean no offense to anyone as I will probably read them at some point), I saw the wall of text that was the first page and opted to not read the novelization of what I just said. 

Good luck digesting those entries Commodore. 

I feel a little late to the prom here, and just about everyone has made a few really good points. I think we can all agree that eastern developers have lost there mojo when it comes to pandering to us westerns hipsters (p.s. ----> not implying we are all hipsters!).

I think what our eastern pals need to do is return to there roots, they need to rediscover a better gaming philosophy with there own ranks. A huge problem I think, tho I am going out on a limb here... they are crossing there anime over with there video games. Now that might work over there with there target demographic, but many of us who don't watch half of the crazy crap that they put out. I think we are just kinda confused...and maybe a little disturbed. (I credit sonic rose for bring anime up).

A lot people are bring up Final Fantasy, and tho they will always pump out a new FF game almost every 2 to 3 years. I would like to see them stop after FF XV, it a nice round number to stop on. I stopped loving Final Fantasy after 6, aside all the fan-love FF7 has I couldn't get passed how easy they end was, totally ruined the game for me. FF8 was a joke... I still to this day can't stand FF8. Now I really enjoy FF9, I loved how the whole game was a huge "bow" to all the older Final Fantasy games.

Erm... I... g.. My.... Give me a moment.

...

30 minutes of WW and then 21 posts, half of which are wals of text, and I read almost all of them (I didn't read Clocktown64's post but maybe you might want to use paragraphs next time) and my head just hurts. Having been born into the N64, and most of my memories from the Gamecube days, I don't remember a time when video games were all Japan based. I grew up when the Xbox was coming into the world, although I still considered Japan the head of video games but that was because I only played Nintendo systems back then.

I don't have much to say because of my limited insight, but I can agree to many of the points said in this, and I will probably try to put my own thoughts into a blog or something. For example, someones mentioned (Sorry for not giving you proper credit but I am NOT looking through this tower of text again, yeah tower of text. TOT) that japan video games use absurd characters, I can agree to that. I don't remember the name but there was a shmup at e3, Pat did an interview with a female developer and in the game you play as some anime girls flying shooting at shit (I noticed the female developer specificly because I imagine they probably believe that is they market that this game was made by girls it won't seem overly sex based) and honestly it looked cool, like a Parodious game and I was thinking about buying it when it came out. And the Interview went on, and then they showed in the character collecting screen you can click on their 'torso' and their boobs jiggly and shit. I nearly cried right then, no way in hell I could get this game! A 14 year old, full of anoying hormones and stuff, people would think I am jacking off to the character select screen (The sad part is I probably would :(, but I have the self control to just NOT BUY IT). Basically they lost a potential customer because they had to give it that sex appeal, and that is what is wrong with games, especially jappanesse games, but I feel I am probably going off to another topic.

Since I don't have much more to say myself and it seems like I am going to be one of the last posts, I am going to give The Commodore a break and link a video, Extra Credits episode: The Gun, which sounds off topic but it does go over why FPS games are so popular and the difference between America and Japan games. And I'm sure The Commodore is tired of reading right now. *HUG*

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/3261-The-Myth-of-the-Gun

Ninto, i have to say that is a great video not only is it informative, but it also supports my mock jab at the Americans and their FPS's :p

Seriously though, that is awesome.

I don't remember the name but there was a shmup at e3, Pat did an interview with a female developer and in the game you play as some anime girls flying shooting at ... ~Ninto55

Otomedius Excellent - http://thepunkeffect.com/?p=2316